Auditioning for orchestra now soon, and wanted to see what people’s experience was with the program, as I’ve heard lots of stuff. Only program that resembles new world, gain lots of experience playing and get paid, so it looks very attractive. Thanks!
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So why all the negative outrage to this program, The Orchestra Now? It is hard to put simply but let me explain the predicament we are in.
Leon Botstein is the president of Bard College, and our maestro. He has full power to hire/fire anyone in our administration, which he requires certain personalities to work under him since he is very demanding on getting things in his image (and only his image). This program is disguised as an educational program, “training orchestra” at Bard College.
So that’s the predicament with TON. Now, it goes further with the greater institution, Bard College.
We are given a stipend of $24,000, so we don’t have a union or any labor laws to protect us or hold anyone in power accountable. Bard’s HR can’t legally help us, as we are technically students.
Who helps protect the students? Well, that’s student affairs. The problem with Bard student affairs is that they only aid undergraduates and since we are considered on paper “graduate students,” we can’t get any support from them. We are a grey area, and the administration under Kristin Roca exploits this to high ****.
So what this means is, if we have any grievances, we have to file a formal complaint which REQUIRES us to put our name in writing and the president of Bard College, Leon Botstein, has to review it.
This is an issue. We try to bring things up with the administration, but this also goes south with putting a target on our head. It’s a sick cycle and the foundation was built so well to suit Leon Botstein and his agenda that no accountability or checks and balances could ever be put in place.
This is how we got here. We are forced to be silent and accept the environment we go through. No questions asked or you’ll create waves. Sit down and do what you’re told, “it’s your training.” Well not exactly ethical or what’s stated in the handbook/website. But sure, you have to find some silver lining of being mistreated to this extent. We, the musicians, joke about if you can go through this program, not quit music, and find some acceptance, then you truly will be prepared for any hostile work environment going forward. This is all very sad and demoralizing. We wish we could do something but we are also met with hurdles that would ultimately fire us or give administration reason to never approve our leaves, I.e. auditions. And yes, the administration has to approve your leave, and yes, they are petty enough to have vendettas towards the students and it’s brutal to endure.
Just smile and keep going, it’s for your survival, and unfortunately dealing with this takes too much time from giving us the opportunity to go elsewhere via auditions. We all come in with hope, and it’s sad to watch it leave each musician after the first few days, weeks and months. Nowhere else have I experienced such a toxic environment as the one that TON creates.
When these issues are brought up at town hall meetings or conversations to executive director Kristin Roca, her answer is “this might not be the right training orchestra for you”
Well this might not even be a training orchestra
46 comments … but they’ll still try and say it’s “a vocal minority”…
These comments honestly make me very sad. Young aspiring musicians need programs like New World to help them bridge the professional world and figure out the puzzle of winning an audition. But it sounds like TON has burned its reputation to the ground by exploiting vulnerable musicians. I have been hearing negative things about TON for 5 years now, from faculty members who teach at TON, and musicians in the MET orchestra and Boston Symphony. I know of faculty members who refuse to advertise TON's auditions because of their restrictions on leave.
I hope the administration takes this feedback and completely rethinks their choices because if they stay on this track, we'll most likely lose this program, as fewer musicians will apply.
If you like musically unfulfilling, inefficient demoralizing rehearsals, your time and autonomy being constantly disrespected, watching the light fade from your colleagues eyes, all while living in the middle of nowhere earning barely enough to pay rent, then you should definitely consider doing it
If you’re not winning orchestra auditions now, you won’t be when you leave Bard. That’s the crux of it. Yes, Leon is a terrible conductor and it’s way too much work for the pay, but you don’t get any individual guidance, and it will not make you a better player.
If you want to have some fun playing in orchestra before you go on to a computer programming degree, it’s a beautiful place and I loved a lot of the other students there!
This program is exploitive of young musicians when they’re in the most vulnerable stage of their career: trying to figure things out professionally after finishing school. I would not personally recommend it, not only did I learn a lot of bad orchestral habits at TON that were challenging to break later on professionally, I found the experience traumatic. The utter futility of trying to do your best as a musician combined with the vicious/vindictive treatment that the students are met with from the admin team on a daily basis creates a toxic environment— especially for young people. Take your love of music and your energy and your optimism and your ambition and run 💙
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Oh boy, where do I even start, I could write books on this place. The main thing I wanna focus on that the comments bellow didn't touch on is the blatant unsafe and hostile work environment that Leon Botstein creates, and there have been clear incidents that have been swept under the rug by the administration that would never fly in a real professional orchestras.
In addition to his outbursts in rehearsals (which are mostly due to his incompetence on the podium), There have been multiple incidents of musicians being pulled into his dressing room, with management witnessing Leon yell, belittle, bully, and physically break and slam things towards musicians. About a year ago, the previous timpanist was pulled into his dressing room during break, and Leon lost his temper and slammed his hand on his desk breaking his wine glass, again this was all in front of the executive director, assistant conductors, and violin coach.
Nothing can be done unfortunately, because of his status. He's also the president of Bard college which makes him the emperor. To also add to comments bellow, all the administration bend to his will.
There are so many other issues with this place, that I'm sure the comments bellow will touch on. If this doesn't keep you from auditioning, I don't know what will.
While I was offered admission to TON, I ultimately turned it down to pursue a graduate performance degree elsewhere. For me, there were a few factors that influenced my decision.
First, I didn't like the restrictive audition leave policy. I have always wanted to pursue a career in a full-time orchestra. While I did learn that you could potentially get more leave for auditions by doing extra work in other groups at TON, I felt this policy and the schedule would ultimately end up being an obstacle I would need to constantly navigate. I felt putting a limit on the amount of auditions I could take would be very unhelpful and perhaps counterproductive to my goal of joining a full-time orchestra. I ended up taking 22 auditions during the time I would've been in TON and I feel actually doing the auditions was the most instructive experience I could have had. I did end up winning a principal job in a full-time orchestra at the end of these 22 auditions. I don't know whether I would've been able to take as many auditions had I attended TON.
Second, I felt I needed more one on one instruction to improve. This is a bit personal, but I had been making good progress with individual instruction at that time and I felt I would benefit from more of this. Looking back, I think this ultimately was the right choice for me.
Third, I felt that TON was too much of a commitment for the amount of money paid. As a string player, I was able to make much more money teaching, doing gigs, and playing in regional orchestras with much less of a time commitment in the area where I was pursuing my performance degree. I know though that this is specific to the place you're living/working and not every place will be equally lucrative.
I think it's great that we have a place on this forum to express the varying viewpoints around this. While I'll never know if perhaps it would have been more helpful for me to attend TON, I am happy to have joined a full-time orchestra with the strategy I took.
Members of the group often make reasonable and fair requests of the conductor and staff that aim to better the quality of the performance, quality of rehearsal, and to aim for consistent improvement. What they are met with is eerily similar to some of the comments in this comment section ( @ / Op2178 , for instance ): dismissing valid grievances as complaining and criticizing those affected by the administration’s actions for even bringing it up. Then there’s the conductor yelling niceties like “Jesus ******* Christ” at the group— that’s who the group has to learn from…
Most everyone in the program has run into the following problem on multiple occasions. They practice a particularly tricky passage and then show up to rehearsal to find that the conductor is not prepared. As you can imagine, when the person that is supposed to know the most about the music doesn’t, it makes it pretty hard to even address the music with the care and attention it needs and deserves.
From an international student's perspective, TON is only benefitial if you're looking for an extension of your visa status and some very little money to survive while you're looking at other things. Also after multiple years without CPT I heard they finally have it.
The only things you can actually learn there are a result from the Maestro's inability to conduct, so you learn to be a better listener, or prepare the piece in a better more detailed way because the Maestro cannot be trusted at any point within any music that you might be playing, he will throw multiple curveballs in random spots that disrupts the flow of the orchestra. We would commonly joke that if you can play with Botstein, you can play with anyone.
If you rely solely on releases to take as many auditions as possible you will at best take 6 or 7 auditions in 3 years. As the alternative to taking more auditions, if you are a string player, you will be constantly overworked under a 'heavier than professional orchestras' schedule trying to find a few days off where you can go take an audition and come back ASAP before you get punished for missing a rehearsal for the following cycle.
Any complaints made in the Townhall would barely have any effect, because the biggest problem in the Program is Leon Botstein himself and no one from Admin is willing to question the almighty Leon. At the same time, he is also the face of the program and the major developer and fundraiser for the program, so there is a big chance that without him as president of Bard College and Music director of TON this program would be a complete flop.
Another issue that TON has been facing, is that the orchestra level is gradually declining. Because the very good musicians that hear about these stories and have other options certainly don't even go, and the good ones that do end up going to TON don't last and usually leave after their first year. Which is why they are always having to open more than 3 audition periods a season, and end up accepting players that are usually unprepared or below what you would expect to be in an academic orchestral setting.
The only positive side about TON is probably the community of the players, it is a very friendly environment as everyone is aware of the "common enemy". You get to learn a lot from the exchange amongst colleagues, while doing mocks and things like that. But for a program that prides itself in being a training orchestra, that is absolutely not enough.
Anyone that tells you otherwise, or that say they are now more flexible with audition releases is actually intentionally lying or has not a single clue of what they are talking about.
My experience in TON has been generally good but there are absolutely flaws with the program. I think it’s beneficial for people that don’t want to go into more traditional schooling but it is NOT the place to be if you want to be able to take every audition under the sun. I personally have not had many issues with not being able to take auditions as their rules for getting leave from concert cycles has loosened (from what I hear) in recent years. That being said, this program is what you make of it. The level of the orchestra is pretty noticeably held back not by the musicians but by almost every other factor, specifically the main conductor. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of being “prepared enough” for rehearsals (because of the abundance of rehearsal time) and finding yourself slipping into bad habits and regressing. If you have the right work ethic and motivation it can be a great place for practice and improvement, but the most motivation it will provide you is wanting to get out. I would like to emphasize that this is NOT a good substitute for a performance masters degree due to the lack of weekly lessons. I won’t encourage or discourage from auditioning as a blanket statement because I believe it is a great place (for the right type of person) and I have absolutely benefited from it myself.
If your goal is to make almost enough money to live in the Hudson Valley where there is nothing to do, housing is extremely expensive/unkept, where cars are a must, then this is the place for you! You might play some big pieces by Strauss or Mahler once or twice a year, but the rest of the time you are looking at some of the worst music that no one should try to revive, under two of the worst conductors you can find in the country.
Leon Botstein treats everyone around him like peons at his estate while having no regard for dignity, timeliness, professionalism, or musical standards. Without any intention to mock him, you could have a drummer doing the simplest 4/4 pattern and he still wouldn't know where to put the beats with the baton, he is one of the most untalented ''musicians'' I have ever seen. The problem lies in that he is both the music director of TON and the president of Bard College, so he really can do whatever he wants since the program isn't part of the Musician's Union. The program also encourages international students to apply, which they love having because they are less likely to complain since they picture it as a ''great opportunity''. All of the staff bends over backwards to whatever Botstein says, but the assistant conductor Zach Schwartzman is truly the little minion who will sacrifice the orchestra's morale and dignity just to appease his master. Zach is also incredibly untalented at music, and turns all his insecurity into rageful and obscenely aggresive conducting that would not even considered acceptable for a graduate degree audition at any conservatory.
You will probably get 1 or 2 guest conductors a year, but the rest of the time you are trapped with those two and they will make your life miserable. Any positive musical experiences and musical growth has to come from you and your colleagues. The sad part is that the players themselves are actually really good, but every concert and rehearsal is just about surviving the conductors.
In the end, the management at TON are simply trying to keep their jobs, which they do by appeasing Leon, so don't ever expect you to be a priority for them. You are there to use the grant money and be on the pictures so that unhinged Leon can keep conducting his orchestra outside of the union.
While TON might seem great on paper, it is more of a pet orchestra to fulfill the music director’s ego than a “training orchestra.” Almost anyone on the staff and administration seems to work with the primary concern being to appease Leon Botstein who is constantly the weakest link in rehearsals.
The “Maestro” is clearly too busy with his multitude of duties to run a decent rehearsal let alone a decent concert. That alone could be palatable, but it results in a highly defensive style of leading and teaching frequently plagued with unprofessional rants and gaslighting.
With the installation of “blackout” dates you may be denied your request to take the audition for your dream job which is clearly in conflict with the written mission of a “training orchestra.”
I am sharing my experiences as a recent graduate. The program offers you a two year certificate or a three year masters program. That might sound nice, but all you get is a place where you work for less than minimum wage. Since you are a student and there to learn this still wouldn’t be a dealbreaker and the program advertises itself as one that prepares you for auditions and professional life. The Orchestra Now does not do any of that. There is no relevant education. The majority is playing in the orchestra under the baton of the music director and satisfying his weird ideas. You get two 30 minute audition prep classes per semester and you have to attend two seminars which are absolutely not related to auditions or professional life at all.
The absence policy is ridiculous and one cannot help but wonder if anyone from the leadership have ever been even close to an audition since it seems like they are just trying to sabotage you from ever winning one while gaslighting you by saying they are helping you.
Administration extends every year and hires their favorite people from the orchestra creating them new titles while complaining about budget cuts.
The stipend you get is $24,000 per year before tax and before buying your own health insurance. An average rent is $900 per month. You would want to work something besides TON but unfortunately the schedule is quite intense, has no consistent structure, and every week states “PLEASE NOTE SCHEDULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE” so it is extremely hard to find a job. Forget about gigging, cause you’re gonna live in the middle of nothing. As much as I loved living upstate it cut me off from all my network and I feel like other than buying time, I was left without a job, network, or money by the end of those 3 years.
I’d suggest if you can afford go to a performance program and find a teacher for yourself who can prepare you for your auditions, then go for that. TON sounds good because the Public Relations team makes it look charming, but it is depressing and the program uses the musicians big time for their own agenda, which is proudly detached from the music industry it claims it’s preparing us for, while claiming it is our “training”.
I learned a lot while at TON. It gave me the opportunity to dive deep into the orchestra experience and prepare myself for a real job. Winning a job is one thing, keeping it is another. TON gives you the opportunity to flex your abilities in learning lots of music - so that was my experience. It’s also really special to be able to get money for playing music part time. I’ve worked other odd jobs while trying to pursue music, and it’s demoralizing to have to juggle it all and not feel like you’re progressing in your art. Like anything else, the opportunity is what you make of it and the attitude you walk into it with will impact your experience.